Emptying the Haunted Air - Latest Comments

Re: Updating Comments Section

bd — Wed, 15 May 2013 16:11:30 -0000

http://www.mediafire.com/?d...

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

mrfossy — Mon, 03 Sep 2012 01:22:51 -0000

It does. There's already a number of good websites that do just this, as well, although certainly nothing with the clout of Pitchfork. I would love, absolutely love, to see a more established touring route that covers the geographic region Luke describes, and more established musical exchanges in general.

Actually, for all the complaining that goes on about interest in music here (including myself) there's a lot of people who work really hard to promote and support bands here. Shit, everyone I know here, pretty much.

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Guest — Mon, 03 Sep 2012 00:34:35 -0000

This is the response which make sense.

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Mr Fossy — Fri, 13 Apr 2012 05:44:02 -0000

Missing a few things, yeah... I didn't bitch to Pitchfork, but made a polite and considered inquiry, with no agenda or motivation save for my own earnest curiosity. The most unfortunate thing, for me, is that I never got any answer to my most important question. I hadn't intended to even mention any Chinese bands (I didn't in my original email), I wanted to learn more about the editorial policies and internal decision-making of these kind of publications.

I mentioned the Beijing bands in passing, counting on the (I believe) likely possibility that some staff there would already know of them. I didn't provide any direct links or specific suggestions of songs or albums.

I don't like the taste of grapefruit. It's possible that the editor of Pitchfork media likes grapefruit. I learned a while ago that my tastes in music are often too omnivorous and unusual, and not always shared by other people. I've always been too afraid to admit around people here how much I like jazz fusion and drone :)

I said this to Josh already - I had not yet heard any of Stalin Garden's music when I sent the email, or I would certainly have mentioned them. I regret this, but on balance it probably wouldn't have changed much. That said, anybody else in the world is also capable of sending a SG link to Pitchfork, Rolling Stone, or the UN should they desire...

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Hanna — Fri, 13 Apr 2012 02:38:02 -0000

I'm perplexed at why you'd send an email to Pitchfork bitching that there are no Chinese bands represented on the site, and when someone got back to you asking for suggestions, you "rattled off a few, mostly the well-established Beijing bands" that were not really your sort of thing. Of course he didn't like them. Neither do you! Josh kinda pointed this out - you should've sent him Stalin Gardens. Maybe I'm missing something here.

Anyway, this point of view is appreciated. I wouldn't mind seeing more Chinese bands on sites like Pitchfork, mostly just because there are so many great ones and I'd love to know that their sounds are making it to more ears, regardless of nationality.

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Mr Fossy — Thu, 12 Apr 2012 12:09:59 -0000

I've seen a number of cleverly-conceived ideas over the last two years pan out into really successful shows that have drawn such audiences. The Eat Naked Lunch show in 2010 was a simple, curatorial idea that got more people there than perhaps it had any right to expect. Things like that - pared back exhibitions of local artists' work laid against local music. I saw recently (and shall write) how the simple addition of food to the mix had a positive effect.

Perhaps, just as plonking songs onto a CD is no longer quite enough to hook a sale, putting bands onto a stage isn't enough either. And that something more needs to be given - even if is rudimentary or abstract. That's what the marketing chaps at my company are always saying, anyway...

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

shaun/tenzenmen — Thu, 12 Apr 2012 11:07:32 -0000

that was gonna be my question josh!

my thinking is along the lines of luke - work it internally - work it so that so many chinese are into it that it doesn't even matter if pitchfork come along sniffing at it later - make pitchfork and sxsw inconsequential!

of course that wouldn't help me sell tenzenmen cds....but that's another story!

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Rubbish — Thu, 12 Apr 2012 10:47:32 -0000

I'm nobody important, not one of the 247 chaps, pseudonym isn't because of that but due to an irrational fear of the interweb and databases. Blog is in the opinion/blogs section on 247, easy to find.

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

josh — Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:40:29 -0000

what's your blog link? sorry maybe i'm missing something but i'm not sure who you are.. are you one of the guys doing Shanghai 24/7?

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Rubbish — Thu, 12 Apr 2012 07:28:54 -0000

Hey Josh, I do have a few pet theories and rather than completely hijack this thread a couple have been discussed on my blog on 247. If you think about it we are talking about a real hard to get to, very constrained by the realities of both studying and then working in a highly competitive society bunch of people. So that’s a starting point.

Sunday (or Saturday) afternoon shows, university shows, shows that provide transport to and from campuses, responsible corporate or other support (there is such a thing), are all ways of adapting to the fact that you aren’t talking about a bunch of people who can afford to get taxis home at stupid o’clock in the morning and aren’t locked out of the dorm or for that matter have the readies to spend on expensive events. Adapt how they are run – we are talking about people who may have never been to a gig or a venue or whatever, ensure that when they leave they take away something that reminds them again and again that yeah, I had an awesome time and fuck me I want to go see more. I could go on about the importance of promotion and how again, adapting both the content and delivery of said promotion to a different audience is and a whole bunch of other stuff but I am in danger of writing more than Mr Fossy did which would be real rude. Or something.

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

josh — Thu, 12 Apr 2012 06:08:40 -0000

Rubbish - i think everyone here agrees with you. and many are actively trying to make it happen with booking, zines, online promotion, DIY labels, etc. it's easier said than done. do you have ideas for how to build the domestic scene?

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Rubbish — Thu, 12 Apr 2012 03:40:03 -0000

@ Luke

Impressed you tried to do that calculation, too many zeroes the wrong side of the decimal point for me, actually come to think of it I am not even sure how to write billion in numbers either.

I wasn't exactly saying don't look out and as I started re: SxSW being a cool thing to have done and both the bands I mentioned have gone off hassling people all over the world. More what i was saying was as you rightly point out there is a real small part of the population here that follows or even knows about the bands we are talking let alone what they have to offer. So there are something like 300 million people in China between 15 and 30 (if I am reading the graph I am looking at right), more or less the entire population of the US and just a wee bit more than Australia. To me that is the definition of an untapped potential audience and also I guess why big western companies are spending so much to get in to the country.

Get just a small percentage away from whatever garbage they are listening to now and listening to and supporting local bands and that is likely to be a pretty big deal and as i said, it is real hard to ignore anything that happens on the scale it does here at times. It does surprise me to see how well attended the billion or so festivals here are yet how small audiences are at regular gigs; I've spoken to a few people who were at first shows and stuff seems they just didn't know this sort of thing existed. Or it was too late, too far, too expensive, etc etc. i won't go in to that right now.

Summarized i guess what I am saying is if the local music scene grew and was well supported domestically then rags like pitchfork would pay attention.

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

luke — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 23:58:40 -0000

@ Rubbish

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but, just to play devil's advocate for a while, let's check the maths on the domestic audience argument. What's 1500 CDs distributed among 1.3 billion (1.4 now?)? I actually tried to get a percentage and it was going into negative exponential powers and that hurts my brain this early in the morning. And both of those bands gave away the majority of their CDs. I think you'll find that advertising fliers for your local supermarket have a better distribution rate.

Androsace & Pairs can both be pretty proud of what they've achieved, but you can't blame them, or any other Chinese band, for thinking they might be able to tap a bigger market abroad. As it stands, there's just not enough people in China listening to homegrown underground music.

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Rubbish — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 15:48:40 -0000

"If Chinese bands want to make it they gotta do it for themselves"

This I think is a really important comment - you do have to go out there and find people who will help, listen, review, distribute, whatever. Find people who are interested and care, there are a few around for sure, generally i would suggest not those that run massive sites chasing hits as a way of selling advertising space. Which I found odd about pitchfork - massive site, streaming media does not come cheap etc and I couldn't see any obvious signs of revenue generating content, as in ads, plus they have what looked like an enormous staff behind it. They must make money somehow........I really wonder how......

Going back to the quoted comment, isnt that the punk ethos, the DIY ethos? As in do your stuff and if you want to make it heard do it everywhere and don't rely on someone else to do it for you? On that basis the SxSW stuff I think is really important - forget whether it sucked or 30 people turned up, other than it is a fuck off cool experience for any band, if Chinese bands arent going now and doing the hard yards it wil be years before anyone sort of breaks that deal. Look at what was learned - I've seen stuff about not doing a China showcase type thing, that next time it might be better to split up and play with other bands, be choosy about your venues, dont use facebook for unplanned events :). So next time it might be different and a few more people might get to see what we all take for granted here now. I'd also add at this point that partnering with someone who gives a fuck about music would probably be worthwhile and again - there are few people who I expect would help out in that way.

Likewise, if you make the effort to record then for god's sake why not make the effort to promote it and get it out there to as many people as possible. That's not commercialism - it's just basic shit unless you wanted to do it for no reason other than to listen to it yourself. We live in a country of 1.3 billion people, goodness me, why are we looking out so much and why are we not looking in? (Yeah, I know, I am contradicting myself but hang in there OK?).

China is a curiosity to most of the world and definitely the US (putting it politely for the majority of the US). So sure, you see the odd piece in the New York Times, Guardian etc but it isn't based on genuine interest in the music scene here - it is based on "wow, how weird, that strange communist country we know nothing about has some tiny weeny underground scene that we think is cute / interesting".

My view is we are coming at this the wrong way and missing the obvious thing. Like everything about this country it has scale on its side - who the fuck would ignore Chinese bands if just a few percent of the student subset was well in to the sort of music we are talking about? There's your starting point - punk, grunge, you name it didn't just start with three bands flogging records, they were movements hard to ignore as a result of the sheer volume/scale/participation.

If you read the AQ review of Summer Sweat you would have seen the !!! following the statement "limited to 1500 only". That was to me an eye-opener; a Shanghai band are producing a run of CDs that make geezers like that think "fuck, that isnt limited in our world buddy!" Androsace after their first 500 handmade goodies now have a further 1000 printed CDs they are giving away on their tour of China and I believe they are already running low. That's 1500 people who will take something home more than just ringing ears and maybe some of them will come back for more.

Which I think was sort of the closing point from Mr Fossy - it is cool to see some recognition but really, concentrate within and focus on the fact that this is a super great scene with enormous potential. Oh - if bands in Shanghai spent more time being supportive of each other that would be pretty cool too.

Re: Rustic – never use water based lube

Mr Fossy — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:21:40 -0000

Again, logical fallacy. You can't conclude from this that I am a "Beijing hater". Only that I didn't like Rustic's performance on this evening.

I like every other Beijing band I have ever seen (few as they are), but write about them less often because I see them less often. I must insist, again - and I shall keep doing so, I expect sensible discourse here - that you exercise more caution and thought when writing.

As a final comment, it is highly unlikely (although still possible, I suppose) that many people have ever been exposed to music as loud, in decibels or in aesthetics, as I have thrown myself into. Dissonance is one of my great pleasures.

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Mr Fossy — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:15:51 -0000

Hipster-indie, in the way I meant it, is a cynical or false adoption of the aesthetic qualities of independent music, without demonstrating (or only demonstrating in a rudimentary manner) the actual denotation of the word.

You say such odd things. I never attacked Stephen McDonell, he's a fine journalist. I simply dislike certain cliches of much contemporary journalism (and film and literature, for that matter), and thought that this particular report wasn't the best example of Foreign Correspondent's otherwise great approach to the issues they choose to cover. A problem of yours might stem from, what appears to me, as over-sensitivity and a subsequent decline into hyperbole. Attack and diss - at least in the debating traditions I've always been surrounded by - have rather more strong and savage connotations.

This is a Shanghai blog, and I have never pretended otherwise. I know nothing of Beijing's music, and choose not to talk about it or its music community out of a readily-admitted ignorance. It's never wise to talk about things that are beyond your ken. I'll go there, in time, when work allows me some. Although saying I don't like the music a band produces doesn't amount to hate. I have no hate for anything, truly.

While I do not hate it, I have very little patience for logical incoherence and fallacy in argument. Carelessness and ill-considered language. I do expect better of people, in addition to a good-faith and intellectually curious approach to discussion - even though this is the internet. Reading other people's posts in their entirety, and making sure your responses don't misrepresent them, is a basic courtesy and responsibility.

Re: Rustic – never use water based lube

Keysy — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 13:43:48 -0000

Yes, I was right, you certainly are a Beijing hater. For someone that gushes all over his audience at the mention of Duck Fight Goose you are certainly sounding a bit hypocritical when its a Beijing label that has signed them. Mate, please do us all a favor and book a train to Beijing, drink some erguotou, eat some chuanr, listen to some loud music and loose the attitude!

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Keysy — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 13:21:44 -0000

Sorry AB I must admit I missed the argument about the "Independent, not hipster-indie", whatever that means.

What I read was that someone who seems fit to diss a music blog for not mentioning a Chinese band, then to go on and attack a Walkley award winning, legendary back flanker for the Beijing Bombers' journalistic integrity, for not only mentioning, but interviewing an actual Chinese band and a music label owner on a regionally broadcast program! Dont shoot him down for spreading the gospel that is Beijing rock! We are all doing our little bit for this cultural crusade of ours.

I also picked up a bit of snooty Shanghai attitude and perhaps just a tad of negativity towards Beijing in this one..."So I rattled off a few, mostly the well-established Beijing bands. I added that they were not really my sort of thing". Dont be a hater. Spend a few weeks in Beijing sometime and smell the roses. You dont happen to play for the Shanghai Tigers by chance do you? That would certainly explain the hate ;)

Josh its been too long. Nearly 2 years now since I last cracked a Yanjing! Hoping to get back soon for a visit. I read all your pangbianr emails with much interest and respect. Of course with the massive expat population in BJ there is always going to be plenty of laowei at gigs (hopefully we are all not dickheads), but over the 4 years I lived in China there was def a change in the wind in regards to the amount of young Chinese kids coming out to gigs and getting involved in the scene. Particularly in exciting places like Wuhan. Great to see. Hopefully we will start to see more of it in the English language blogosphere. i really like the Beijinger's Michelle Dai's analysis, I hope she keeps writing about the scene now she is studying here in Australia.

I'm positive about the scene, some exciting new bands, some long awaited big new releases from old favs coming to light, lots of old timers passing down knowledge and inspiration to the young grasshoppers. If Chinese bands want to make it they gotta do it for themselves. Josh I found your assessment of SXSW very interesting. I have never been to SXSW but I wonder too that if all the effort and resources that have gone into several trips has resulted in much other than some great experiences for a lucky few that happen to find themselves on a western owned label. Why isn't Modern Sky investing in some of their great bands overseas? Maybe international success just isn't important to them. If it is to the bands, then they need to start backing themselves and paying for some airfares cause they cant expect handouts from this tightass government of ours down here.

There is a real interest here amongst Australians to learn more about this country that is paying our bills and transforming our society. Not to mention the Chinese students. And with people like Tenzenmen and Carriageworks here ready to promote Chinese music, more Chinese labels and bands should reassess their international strategy.

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Andy Best — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 08:09:33 -0000

My first post was just a shallow joke but I see some good comments here. There's nothing more to say on those.

Tim (Mr Fossy's) main point is sound. The parallel he draws between people who claim to support independence is a good taking point. And how Independence clearly has different definitions.

To Bistoo: Your comment/advice to Stalin Gardens is completely hypocritical. The last time you and I were commenting on a blog post in a heated debate (the Brad Ferguson interview at SH247) you were claiming that people should not care about about critical success or perfection. You said that people should just get up and play music cos they like it and the rest doesn't matter. Now you're saying the opposite.

I know for a fact that SG work as hard as they can given their time constraints and the latest show at YYT reflects that. More bands and more styles to listen to is better, right? They know their No Wave and it shows.

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

josh — Wed, 11 Apr 2012 05:46:22 -0000

that's a pretty prickish response, Grant. you don't think Chinese musicians are excited about making a splash at SXSW or getting covered by Pitchfork? they're certainly a lot more pumped about it than I am! Pitchfork is most certainly read in China. and the bands they mention regularly are diffused in Chinese media. take a look at Wooozy.cn's mixes and cross check the bands on them with pfork!

like I said, i couldn't give a fuck less about Pitchfork. i think SXSW is a shitshow, my thoughts about it are a matter of public record. i did a house show during SXSW, had a facebook event and all, 30 people came and it got shut down by the cops. i wish the US was more like Australia. then again it has over 10 times the population. can a Chinese band tour OZ and break even on travel costs? doubt it. can they do that in the US or Europe? yes, if there is pre-existing awareness of the band because of coverage from prominent online music media tastemakers, such as...

p.s. what's the last show you went to in Beijing, Grant? these days they are almost all 50% or more "dickhead expats". as a cultural crusader myself i spend most of my time and energy booking small, local, cheap shows in Beijing. i only go to SXSW to drive, translate, and move amps.

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Mr Fossy — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:19:15 -0000

Apparently I need to change the theme of the site to one where comment replies appear under their relevant posts. Crikey pants. Edit with names, then.

I'm not used to (or equipped) for people actually reading this fucking blog!

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Mr Fossy — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:11:46 -0000

Reply to luke:

I know, and I could have chosen a better place to send an email. I didn't expect anything from it! ;)

And the shortness of the reply emails... It wasn't even correspondence, really. I don't want to seem like I'm reading too much into the exchange. What Pitchfork do, they obviously do fairly well for their target audience.

You're right about people's potential response to a high profile review... It would cause a downright hissy fit storm. The thing that always shocks me is how nasty and negative some bands can be about each other. There's be no end to the complaining if any band I could think of were reviewed there.

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Mr Fossy — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:08:24 -0000

Reply to Bistoo:

And I would say! You're absolutely right, of course. Nobody gets anywhere without had work, and playing good (or just interesting) music is far from enough. Bands do come up with some pretty clever ideas one of which I want to post about some time soon =]

There's obviously an element of fashion, there. And I've only seen them the once, which makes it impossible for me to see any consistent themes in their performances. The music just struck me at the time. Anything more substantial I write about them will have to be based on more performances.

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Mr Fossy — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:03:57 -0000

Reply to josh:

I hadn't heard Stalin Gardens at that stage, or I might have!

There is no doubt that the publicity would help in any number of ways, and it would be vastly gratifying to see one's band name up there somewhere. I remember the coverage on Altered Zones, and I was really pleased to see it but, like you said, that is no longer...

Re: No Hats to be Dissed, Here

Mr Fossy — Tue, 10 Apr 2012 16:59:04 -0000

I didn't diss Rusic here, lad. And twice is not a pattern, but a pair. Nor did I say or imply that they weren't subversive enough. Subversiveness couldn't interest me less. The point I was making is that I find it odd how journalists feel the need to so unambiguously make a point, and that my favourite examples of journalism are less heavy-handed and more nuanced. Assuming an audience's ability to understand and piece together disparate strands of information (which I suppose needn't always be done) there's value in presentation over representation. This is an aesthetic preference of mine, as much than anything.

That's awesome news about the backyard gig in Canberra. Just a side-note, backyard gigs are one of my favourite memories of Australia, and I do miss them. I have no argument against Chinese bands succeeding in the Southern Hemisphere - it is a wholly positive thing. Of course, I'm much more concerned about their success on a grassroots and community level, which has always been my main focus here, nd shall continue to be.

And hence, it isn't important to me (expat that I am, god help me) that any bands make any splash at SXSW or on some music blog. I didn't say that, and nor will I ever say that. This is a straw man argument, and a vehicle for a fairly inaccurate and needless series of comments. At the end of my (very long-winded, I know) post I say quite clearly that music here doesn't need external legitimacy or patronage. I couldn't have put it any more clearly - although perhaps I could have put it at the beginning to prevent misunderstanding.

I don't consider myself needed, or wanted, and I doubt anybody who has ever talked to me would argue as much. I write, have always written, for the sake of my own musical understanding. And also to celebrate things that I consider aesthetically pleasing which, I hope, will forever be my interest.

Aside from all that, I must insist that you refrain from aspersions and insults. There is nothing to be gained from either.